A Ray of Hope?

Not of Peace, but with a Conscience?

Published on September 5, 2004 By pseudosoldier In Current Events

I've hated reading some of greywar's articles for awhile now: the Religion of Peace series.
It's because he's damned persuasive. It's a dark, dark world, and it's easy to think bad things about a lot of people. I'm the resident Arabologist (and part-time Arabiaphile) of our little group, so I don't like to think bad things about my subject matter, as it were...

Link
This article, however, is just the type of article that I need to push back the darkness, and convince myself that there are kernels of good spread out in the world. People, not all people, but some people, they have consciences. *Whew*

Reading it a bit deeper, yeah, this is pretty refreshing. I hope grey sees this... but I think I may print it out and take it into work, just to make sure.

Comments (Page 2)

Muggaz

on Sep 07, 2004

So - because they are fighting for an Islamic state - that doesn't give them the right to fight for independance? I am still not following you - if they want an Islamic state, good for them... I would argue it's independance before Islamic state every time - it's a mere coincidence in this situation.

BAM!!!

Suspeckted

on Sep 07, 2004

The Painful Truth: All the World Terrorists are Muslims!"

Forgive me, I did read the article, but I wasn't sure if that was really supposed to be the claim or if I had missed something. This is also a horribly false statement. Until Sept. 11th a great number of terrorist acts inflicted upon the US were perpetrated by Americans. From this perspective perhaps the US military should take responsibility for all of those who have used their US military training to commit horrific crimes. I'm not suggesting this, but I think an awful lot of people forget that Americans kill more Americans than foreign terrorists ever could.

pseudosoldier

on Sep 07, 2004

Muggaz - I would argue that the want for independence was brought about by the want for an Islamic state... because the infidel can't be trusted with ruling the devout.

The establishment of Sha'ria is something that was narrowly avoided in Iraq, and something that would have easily been utilized by the ruling party to oppress the other segments of the population. I realize that the counter-argument here would be that any system of law would allow for oppression, but I believe that because it would be religious law, many would either not bat an eye, or defend the actions.

pseudosoldier

on Sep 07, 2004

Suspekted - "A great number of terrorist acts inflicted upon the US were perpetrated by Americans" does not disprove Sayed al-Rashed's claim. Additionally, "Americans kill more Americans than foreign terrorists ever could" only tangentially touches upon the question of "domestic" terrorism, as I have to assume you're lumping common crime into that equation.
Forgive me for assuming you hadn't read the article, however. It was difficult for me to tell without more context.

Suspeckted

on Sep 07, 2004

No, it does disprove his claim if he's claiming that The Painful Truth: All the World Terrorists are Muslims!

Muggaz

on Sep 07, 2004

Muggaz - I would argue that the want for independence was brought about by the want for an Islamic state... because the infidel can't be trusted with ruling the devout

Ah yes - I concur - I do beleive this conflict can be looked out without bringing religious dispositions into it though. Thats just me, and anyone is welcome to an opinoin just like I am.

I must thank you for discussing this reasonably with me.

BAM!!!

greywar

on Sep 07, 2004

I do beleive this conflict can be looked out without bringing religious dispositions into it though.

That is because you seem to know just about nothing concerning it. A trademark of leftist punditry! Congrats:) A lovely denial of the facts as well. Hell make it a lefty two-fer!

greywar

on Sep 07, 2004

Any excuse to attack Islam right Greywar...

Let me know when the Lutherans or the Buddhists slaughter over 300 kids in this day and age Muggaz. Just post some fucking research to back up anything you have posited in this.

pseudosoldier

on Sep 07, 2004

Suspekted - Yet, he's not claiming that, merely using that title to draw in readers. Hyperbole for the sake of sensationalism, for the sake of newspaper sales. If you wish to say that his actual message is obfuscated by his overstated title, fine, I can concede that point easily. His underlying message is not necessarily as sweeping as the title makes it seem.

Muggaz

on Sep 07, 2004

That is because you seem to know just about nothing concerning it. A trademark of leftist punditry! Congrats:) A lovely denial of the facts as well. Hell make it a lefty two-fer!

*yawn*

What is there to know? Chechens dont like the Russians, have been living under brutal rule for many years, and want independance... I am not denying any facts, but you resorting to trademark leftist punditry comments reeks of an inability to see more sides to the argument than yours... not something un-expected from a grunt in the millitary.

Let me know when the Lutherans or the Buddhists slaughter over 300 kids in this day and age Muggaz. Just post some fucking research to back up anything you have posited in this.

Chechen seperatists who happen to be Muslim are savages - I can tell you, if they happened to be Lutherans, that wouldn't even be brought up, they would just be savage Chechen seperatists, rather than Lutheran Chechen Seperatists.

BAM!!!

Gideon MacLeish

on Sep 07, 2004

Muggaz,

Would you kindly tell me what those children who were slaughtered had to do with the Chechnyan resistance? I will concede that grey may be overzealous at times in his statements about Muslims, but you are equally overzealous in your defense of their right to murder. What you are doing is NO LESS APPALLING than the Christians who defended the holocaust.

Muggaz

on Sep 08, 2004

Would you kindly tell me what those children who were slaughtered had to do with the Chechnyan resistance? I will concede that grey may be overzealous at times in his statements about Muslims, but you are equally overzealous in your defense of their right to murder. What you are doing is NO LESS APPALLING than the Christians who defended the holocaust.

I am not defending anyone right to Murder - please point me to where I have defended these horific actions.

I am defending Islam though - this horrific act was not commited in the name of Islam, it was commited in the name of Chechen independance. I dont think I need to distinguish the difference.

The Chechen seperatist's in this case are brutal murderers. This does not need to turn into another religious debate. It is a case of bad people doing bad things in the name of independance, not religion.

BAM!!!

Gideon MacLeish

on Sep 08, 2004

I am defending Islam though - this horrific act was not commited in the name of Islam, it was commited in the name of Chechen independance. I dont think I need to distinguish the difference.

For the sake of this thread, I will assume that it was just mere coincidence that they all happened to be Muslim, according to all reports I have read.

My argument hinges not just on this thread, muggaz, but on your consistent insistence that the Muslims that have been active in terrorist activities are somehow justified. I have seen this not on one thread, but as a continued theme in your writing.

I think you've read enough of my stuff to know that I refuse to generalize and paint all Muslims with the same brush. But we NEED to speak out against the radical factions of this faith that perpetrate these acts (and, YES, I spoke out against Eric Rudolph, and YES I spoke out against Fred Phelps).

I know you're not a parent, muggaz, but let me say this: as a parent, the Russian school situation hit me far harder than 9/11. While I don't feel terrorism is ever justified, I think the school situation was below many of the most vile Muslim terrorists.

Indelibly etched in my mind is the image of a young girl, kissing her mother goodbye and climbing onto a bus to go to her first day of "kinny-garten". This fictional child has a gap in her front teeth, and is all smiles and waves as the bus pulls away. This fictional child is piled among the 350 dead in my mind. I think this way because I am a father. And I cannot begin to fathom how unimaginably intense the grief of these men and women who lost their children to such a horrendous event is at this time. As I stated on another, thread, my first reaction is one of hatred. After the hatred cools, however, the only reaction I can have is that of righteous anger and a fierce determination to work to create a world where we don't see these kinds of actions. And when I see some of the statements you have posted in defense of the ideology of these monsters (not just you; pro-terrorist sentiment appears to be the Aussie flavor of the day), it saddens me. Because you, Muggaz, are intelligent enough to know that the actions of these men is wrong. You can decry the actions without decrying the religion; I do it frequently. And you are eloquent enough to be able to formulate statements that don't constitute a defense for the people who DO perpetrate these acts.

Muggaz

on Sep 08, 2004

know you're not a parent, muggaz, but let me say this: as a parent, the Russian school situation hit me far harder than 9/11. While I don't feel terrorism is ever justified, I think the school situation was below many of the most vile Muslim terrorists.

I almost cried while I was driving my car mate... It hit me, and it hit me hard.

And when I see some of the statements you have posted in defense of the ideology of these monsters (not just you; pro-terrorist sentiment appears to be the Aussie flavor of the day), it saddens me.

I am not following you mate - I am not pro-terrorist, and Australia certainly isn't pro-terrorist - In all sincerity, please point me to where I have condoned the terrorist actions? I am as shocked as the next guy when terrorist's pull this kind of crap, in fact, I am even more shocked, because I fear the inevitable retribution on the innocents that are un-fortunate enough to share locality with the terrorists.

I am obviously struggling to articulate myself here in my defense of Islam - which appears to be written of as evil already... I will not give up though... I know and respect too many moderates who are just as disgusted as you by these actions, and I will not have them lumped in the same basket as these terrorists just because they pray to the same God.

BAM!!!

Gideon MacLeish

on Sep 08, 2004

Muggaz,

first of all, I'm not going to point you to the statements in question because, one, they've already been pointed out on other threads, and two, you and I both know that's a big can of worms we don't want to open. Suffice it to say I have seen it, and your statements, while they may not have been an accurate reflection of your thoughts, nonetheless took on a tone of justifying the actions of the terrorists.

The reason I made my comment about the aussie flavor of the day is I have seen similar defenses from 2 other aussie bloggers regularly and from a 3rd occasionally.

I have taken great strides in my blogs and in my responses to differentiate between the factions that perpetrate these acts and the Islamic faith as a whole. i have, however, repeatedly stated the need for more Muslims to speak out against these actions, and I will continue to do so. If they want to see these acts end as bad as we do, they need to do what they can to make these factions of Islam unpopular.

As for the school situation, no, it's not fair to pin it on the Muslims, but it IS fair to pin it on the FACTION of the Muslims that happened to also be Chechen rebels that were responsible here. The fact that they happened to be of particularly radical Muslim faith as well almost certainly influenced their objective. That would be pretty hard to deny.

Incidentally, muggaz, one of the reasons this irritates me so much is I have seen Christians blamed for the holocaust many times, and I have NOT ONCE seen you step forward and demand that Christians not be so blamed. You have a decided bias, and unfortunately, that bias comes across as sympathy for terrorists in many of your posts and responses. If I were the only one who saw this I'd let it go, but others have seen it as well...you would be well to consider the possibility that some of your posts could be worded differently.

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